Hello, I do resonate with your sentiments and statements but the simple idea behind it is-- if you do infact believe in a Supreme being, its a bit of an understanding that those books in question all allude to the worship of or acknowledgement of that Supreme being more certainly than others. There is no telling that the books you brought up allude to the acknowledgement and worship of that same Supreme being. Some lodges do allow other books, ie: but it's not as common as the 3 main Abrahamic faith books.
That makes a lot of sense. I see what you're saying.
There is only one Supreme Being (hence the name). God, The Ultimate, The Unknowable, The Universe.
The bigger issue is that coming to the lodge and proposing being sworn in on the books you are mentioning might make people believe you are joining freemasonry for occult knowledge, which is not what freemasonry is necessarily about. While esotericism is studied individually by some masons, Freemasonry itself is just a system of symbolism and allegory related to being a better person. There are appending bodies to freemasonry that can feel a bit more mystical but-- the core of what freemasonry is has nothing to do with occult or mysticism.. and For most lodges that are recognized by the Grand Lodge and not a clandestine operation, it really bothers masons to know someone is joining for the wrong reasons.
I hope this helps.
Which is why precisely I put it right out there that I'm an occultist and ceremonial magician. I understand that it's more about self-improvement and character than anything esoteric, despite the symbols and mystery that any lodge (well, unless this is the Golden Dawn, lol).
There are a few issues at work.
1. It might be off-putting to your lodge members. A supermajority of Masons are Christians, and a very large number of those view any kind of witchcraft, occultism, and grimoires as antithetical to Masonry. Not just that they are different or heretical, but there is a prevailing notion that those are for bad people to do bad things, so it's like asking to make meth in chemistry class. We here realize that's not the case, but the lodge guys might not.
Which is why I put it right out there that I'm a Witch, Occultist and Ceremonial Magician. I have always been very public about my alternative viewpoints on the World and try to educate the public around my area to remove a lot of mystery surrounding their own preconceived notions. I often try to answer questions they might have to help them understand that we're not evil, we're just like everyone else, maybe a little bit odd, but we get along just like anyone else does. Just with some different views on the Universe and our approach to the Divine.
2. And that leads to them seeing this as you being a punk who wants to force them to accept something they've been taught to think of as The Worst Evil Imaginable on some kind of protocol technicality. Most lodges are looking for people who will join and to some extent conform, and generally hate it when people want to try and make things operate in a different way.
Well I am already familiar with how Lodges work so I'm not trying to be a punk (on a side note I know some great Punks and Goths and Anarchists - I myself am a Goth!
wink wink).
But in all seriousness, like I said above: I am very transparent about paganism and magic and try to answer any questions people have to help dispel a lot of mystery they might have. I even told them that in the same way that people have a lot of preconceptions about Masonry (especially with the stupid conspiracy theories), that it's the same way with Witchcraft and Magic.
On a side note: One Brother asked me if I brewed potions and said that he knew a Witch and that person was "evil". I laughed and told him most people are good meaning and that although there are people in the occult that are out for selfish ends, they usually belong to a different kind of occult order. And anyway, most pagans and witches are good honest people and work very hard to be good upright people. I told him I am an agent of Goodness.
I understand that Lodges are about a common conformity and working together in a community. It would be bad manners to go into it with any other type of view. I'm not trying to throw the table across the room and turn the Lodge into a big upheaval of a mess. You join a lodge to experience fraternalism. That does imply a level of conformity. There's nothing wrong with banding together using a set of symbols.
Both of those issues are something you could probably resolve with proper conversations. Then there's
3. Forgive me, please, but I have a very very hard time taking any kind of paganism seriously as a religion for the simple fact that you are in control over it.
Yes and No. There are forces that are outside of one's control, certainly. While Witches and Pagans have a more direct line of approach with the Divine, they pull no wool to believe that control everything.
You pick your gods and which rituals and divine laws you follow, it's very much you-centered. If you make an oath to Diana or Aradia or Odin or whoever, in 40 years you might decide "You know, fuck this Wicca thing," and go back to whatever your grandma believed. But people who believe in the Bible will spend their entire lives feeling guilty over stealing a candy bar when they were 12.
It is a very personal approach to the divine, yes. However, this has nothing to do with our views on morals and ethics. Most good people have enough common sense to know what is right and wrong. That doesn't really have anything to do with one's relationship with the Divine - in the sense of the way we act and conduct ourselves. We just place ourselves on a more level playing-field with the Divine and have more agency in our affairs and take responsibility for ourselves. Again, there are things which are simply outside of our control. And that is just a part of the mystery of the Divine as any other system would be. Call it "God" or what you will.
If you don't genuinely feel that the higher power to whom you swear your oath will hold you accountable even if nobody else in the world will, then it's not a valid oath. The lodge needs to make sure that your oath represents a submission to a power beyond all other powers, and it's hard to see sincerity when a person's religion is being drawn from an academic critical edition of a zine about witches.
Despite the apparent ad-hominem appearance of this statement, I understand you. And I forgive you! You playing Devil's Adovcate makes me think. From their viewpoint, perhaps the texts that I wish to use - even despite the validity of it (well, the same could be said of their texts in a pagans' eyes - It's just someone else's system) is something they are not very familiar with. So they want to use a book to take an oath that for them, means sincerity to the Utmost. If that's the nail of the matter, then that's fine.
I don't expect them to undestand my personal relationship with my patroness. I do understand that it's a bit different from what they're used to. But that shouldn't detract from my own conviction to be a good person and any oath to be a better person and improve in character.
I think "God" is a vague impersonal force that simply
Is. The prerequisite for joining is the belief in a Supreme Being, it does not say anything about
how one chooses to approach the Supreme Being beyond the belief in it. I believe in a Supreme Being. Great. Their hesitance seems to be a lack of familiarity with any alternative system beyond their own.
Even though in a Lodge system, joined by Lodge symbols and ritual and participating in common myths, understandings; I do not think that it would be right for them to say any path different from one they are familiar with would be grounds to exclude others because of those differences~
Lodges should be about working together to achieve goodness and improving understanding of each other and helping our communities. It should bring people together. In the Odd Fellows they are fantastic and I find already that their systems are very open and people come from all backgrounds. As much as Masonry is about perfecting the temple of the soul and refining ourselves, I think it should hold the same as we act toward others
I wouldn't want to shoehorn myself in something I wouldn't be happy in.
The messages of allegorial myths and lessons in particular systems should be able to be understood by anyone despite their backgrounds in another system. That means the message is clear. I can tolerate using Judeo-Christian working systems and symbols, that's fine. I get what the systems mean and how the symbols can be understood. Great!
Maybe I am just being too nit-picky and really it shouldn't matter so much as a deal I'm thinking it out to be. It's just the principle of the matter. I mean, okay - what
would a pagan use [as a holy book] then? I know some Masons who are also Thelemites who were allowed to use a copy of The Book Of The Law. I think it boils down to the humanity of people. People are people.
It depends on what lodge, some are more understanding and liberal than others ... some even use a 'white book' (blank or otherwise ) - which is sometimes used to accommodate diverse philosophical or non-dogmatic beliefs. You might get that in France , but in some places they might be 'stricter' and require a text from a 'recognized' religion . ( Meaning , a religion they recognize ) .
I think this gets to the meat and two potatoes of the matter. I like the white book idea. That sounds pretty cool.
Since you wrote this ; '' As a Ceremonial Magician there is plenty of material I already follow that is very Judeo-Christian based and it’s fine, I get it. I have no problem with a lot of it because it can be adapted to the framework I personally practice. ''
Why not just include the Bible as the VSL under this understanding . To go though the degrees you will have to be 'flexible' on this as the whole thing is based on a Jewish fiction anyway ( the first temple and King Solomon ) .... but seen as an 'allegory'... see the swearing as an allegory .
or to make a better argument (as a ritual magician ) use the Corpus Hermeticum .... it worked as the VSL to get protection from Islam .
I see what you're saying. That makes sense. Like I said - maybe I'm just being too nit-picky and thinking too much into the idea of it. Hell, a lot of the Ceremonial Magic texts do use the "Power of God" and stuff (I generally exclude any Jesus stuff, but I mean, God as an ultimate force is what it is).
But consider ; do you want to 'go in' under a controversial and 'insistent' person carrying preconceived ideas
or do you want to 'empty your glass' first and learn something , perhaps new to you and thus, not 'rocking the boat' so much ?
Also consider , you might be comfortable in the 'more magical' (in some cases ) Red Lodges (in some places ) but you have to go through the Blue one to get there .
It is the contrary. i want to see what this framework of understanding can bring to my own life and view of the world. perhaps the lessons and teachings of this order can help deepen my understanding and enrich my own systems. I have always loved learning and working to be a better person than I was yesterday.
I don't think asking about taking an Oath on a Pagan text should be "rocking the boat" at all. Maybe to them it is, but to me it's not. It's just someone else's life wanting to join in a system who happens to believe a little differently up-front than someone else. That shouldn't be an issue in my mind. Besides, I'm already aware that the system itself is very based on allegory and symbols from more abrahamic lore anyway, which I don't have a problem with at all. Symbols are symbols and they can teach profound things no matter what background you come from.
