[Help] Are dream characters conscious?

[Lemongrass00]

What do you guys think? I’ve been wrestling with this question for awhile, I’m interested in some different opinions.

 

[Xenophon]

Heraclitus opined that most waking actors are not.

 

[stalkinghyena]

Taking it from my understanding of psychology then you could say yes they are conscious but only in the sense that it is you consciousness reflected back at you. They can also be seen as symbolic representations of deeper layers of yourself, that is, the "subconscious" made manifest. They could just be masks of impulses or unprocessed information, or Jungian archetypes signaling some change in the inner self.

Yet I believe in a kind of telepathy in dreams (or a level of astral operation) where it is a shared experience of more than one mind thinking it is only their dream. These are probably seen from different idiosyncratic perspectives by different dreamers. People who show up are real people who don't know or recognize each other and nobody knows what's going on. But it is possible to know and to recognize. It kind of sucks when someone does know because they might not be pleasant to deal with.

Then there are visitations of spirits in dreams, but these have a tendency to transform the dream into another unique level. These are the kinds that I wake up from somewhat paranoid because they are often really dramatic and make me wonder what it meant and what happens next. Typically something does and it relates to the dream - but never as dramatic as the dream itself.

 

[Xenophon]

Taking it from my understanding of psychology then you could say yes they are conscious but only in the sense that it is you consciousness reflected back at you. They can also be seen as symbolic representations of deeper layers of yourself, that is, the "subconscious" made manifest. They could just be masks of impulses or unprocessed information, or Jungian archetypes signaling some change in the inner self.

Yet I believe in a kind of telepathy in dreams (or a level of astral operation) where it is a shared experience of more than one mind thinking it is only their dream. These are probably seen from different idiosyncratic perspectives by different dreamers. People who show up are real people who don't know or recognize each other and nobody knows what's going on. But it is possible to know and to recognize. It kind of sucks when someone does know because they might not be pleasant to deal with.

Then there are visitations of spirits in dreams, but these have a tendency to transform the dream into another unique level. These are the kinds that I wake up from somewhat paranoid because they are often really dramatic and make me wonder what it meant and what happens next. Typically something does and it relates to the dream - but never as dramatic as the dream itself.

I suppose that's a good litmus implied in the above: if you learn something from the character, s/he's conscious, a real being, or however you like to phrase it. Quite possibly there are different sorts of beings peopling our dreams.

 

[Vandheer]

What do you guys think? I’ve been wrestling with this question for awhile, I’m interested in some different opinions.

Maybe its not really different than a game, whereas all characters a NPC's technically but some might be avatars of something else behind? Same as your character.

 

[Yazata]

There are different types of things that we group together under the name "dream" and I think the level of consciousness or "autonomy" of the characters depends on which dream you are having.

I have used a modified version of the Send a Dream spell from the PGM and believe that it had effect every time I did it. So in that case I was conscious yes.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I mentioned in my lucid dreaming post that I asked one of the people in my dream what their name was, and they replied "I don't remember" which seems a pretty good sign that this particular dream person, at least, was not really autonomous.

I think they are more likely to be your dream expectations of what you think other people should act like, just like you have simulation models of your friends when you say "oh yeah, I'm pretty sure X would do this in this situation"

 

[Xenophon]

I mentioned in my lucid dreaming post that I asked one of the people in my dream what their name was, and they replied "I don't remember" which seems a pretty good sign that this particular dream person, at least, was not really autonomous.

I think they are more likely to be your dream expectations of what you think other people should act like, just like you have simulation models of your friends when you say "oh yeah, I'm pretty sure X would do this in this situation"

My oldest niece was always "not remembering" to do her homework and her mom assumed the lass was autonomous, if not precisely honest. But, yeah, one could make a case the daughter was a slave to TV and her friend's bad examples. (Hall of mirrors there: friends reinforcing bad behavior that seems to belong to all jointly, none severally.) I suppose one can cite this as evidence that we flesh and blood characters pass lives like dream ones. Like Tokugawa Ieyasu said, "Even winning at Sekigahara Pass and building Osaka Castle were but a dream within a dream."

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I suppose I was assuming that everything in dreams is representative of something about oneself - in this case, my subconscious clearly couldn't be bothered to make up any details

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2024

I suppose one can cite this as evidence that we flesh and blood characters pass lives like dream ones. Like Tokugawa Ieyasu said, "Even winning at Sekigahara Pass and building Osaka Castle were but a dream within a dream."

Also, this reminded me that a common reaction to the discovery of magic (i.e. that reality is manipulable by thought) is to assume that the universe is an illusion (or indeed a dream state)

 

[Lemongrass00]

I think they are more likely to be your dream expectations of what you think other people should act like, just like you have simulation models of your friends when you say "oh yeah, I'm pretty sure X would do this in this situation"

I largely agree except there are plenty of exceptions where dream characters act in a very surprising way and autonomous seeming way. The case of Carl Jung's dream 'guide' Philemon is an interesting one. I don't think a case can be made for an argument of consciousness applied to a normal person that can't also be applied to a dream character.

 

[Taudefindi]

What do you guys think? I’ve been wrestling with this question for awhile, I’m interested in some different opinions.

It's hard to say.
Most often than not I imagine that the "NPCs" are either parts of you(taking familiar shapes or shapes you can understand better) or vestiges of things you deal with and that end up in your subconscious one way or another(for example, you start liking someone or something and suddenly you start seeing their representation on your dream).

But then...I still remember dreams where things felt so real and those I was speaking/interacting with didn't feel like they "belonged in the dream" or it was as if we shared a common layer of dream.
It's hard to explain in words but if those "characters" weren't conscious beings then certainly they were the best "actors" I've seen in my dreams.

 

[Xenophon]

I suppose I was assuming that everything in dreams is representative of something about oneself - in this case, my subconscious clearly couldn't be bothered to make up any details

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2024

Also, this reminded me that a common reaction to the discovery of magic (i.e. that reality is manipulable by thought) is to assume that the universe is an illusion (or indeed a dream state)

Illusion as compared to what, though? It seems the guy reacting is being pretty picky. First the guy wants to manipulate reality by thought. When he's successful, instead of being happy at his success, he grouses, "Reality ain't real enough!" Reminds me of an old Down South saying, "She's the kind of woman all Hell couldn't amuse."

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Illusion as compared to what, though?

I always wondered that myself, although I was reminded recently that 'illusion' doesn't mean 'doesn't exist' but 'things are not what they seem', in which case, maybe it refers to the fact that our perceptions (after such heavy processing and massive data filtering) bear little resemblance to whatever the actual object was that we were perceiving.

i.e. our perceptions are not built to see things as they really are, they are built to stop us being eaten by leopards...

 

[Xenophon]

I always wondered that myself, although I was reminded recently that 'illusion' doesn't mean 'doesn't exist' but 'things are not what they seem', in which case, maybe it refers to the fact that our perceptions (after such heavy processing and massive data filtering) bear little resemblance to whatever the actual object was that we were perceiving.

i.e. our perceptions are not built to see things as they really are, they are built to stop us being eaten by leopards...

Yukio Mishima somewhere or other goes onto this long disquisition about the moon in a mirror reflecting from the image in a bowl of water set on a windowsill as the clouds part one night. I imagine that is a pretty far cry from what Neil Armstrong trod on. So the exact status of dream characters might well be hard to nail down. Us too.

 

[Ancient]

My experience says no, DC's are not usually conscious. I have never received novel information in a dream and I have never noticed any characters act with greater autonomy than normal. They tend to fall apart/not exist when I stop paying attention to them.


One experience from my childhood still makes me wonder, though. I recall a recurring dream, happened 3-4 times when I was quite young.

I was in a house that looked as if it was made of...neon lights? I'm not sure how to describe it, but everything was glowing black and very, very smooth. I held a railing on my left as I descended a staircase, large room and house entrance to my right. The scene and movements were extremely emotionally charged - this felt important. I left the house, turned right and walked around the back. The house was on a tiny island only a stone's throw across, sky and water both colorless blending into a black void.
In the small area behind the house a wolf prowled, looking at me. He was made of what looked like obsidian. Black, glassy, and angular. Similar to the house, but where it produced light, he reflected it. We regarded each other briefly and I awoke.


Two things about this dream stand out to me:
1. Intensity - recurring, vivid recollection, heavy emotions
2. Presence - when behind the house with the wolf I felt a presence, for lack of a better word to describe it. It felt caring, protective, a little nervous, male, and hugely intelligent. The presence I felt was like being around someone you've known your whole life. When they're in the room next to you you can feel their energy and understand instinctually what they will do next or how they'll react emotionally.


Given this experience I think it might be possible for a spirit to "enter" a dream. "Communicate within" might be a better term, as I don't think there is a shared space where entities can hook up while we dream. So if you're doing some intense spiritual dream work I think the chances of running into a conscious entity (of one form or another) are a lot higher than your average napper will experience.