Freemasonry Q&A

[Xingtian]

What exactly is a non-degenerated Hermeticism? It’s a pretty amorphous thing from the start

 

[Xenophon]

What exactly is a non-degenerated Hermeticism? It’s a pretty amorphous thing from the start

I suppose one could simply say "pristine Hermeticism." Or "original Hermeticism." Which might still be amorphous. Helpful hint: brazen imposture typically carries a heavy whiff of "secret" and "uncorrupted."

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

If all you saying here is true. Then, I apologize. It's just that their are those People in Power, that are doing those things. There are so many missing kids.

There hasn't been many Masons in government at any one time since the Anti-Masonic party came to fruition after the Morgan Affair. We simply do not have that kind of power anymore, and haven't fir a long time.

This isn't Epstein Island. In fact as the Lodge of the Holy Saints John we are charged with taking care of women and children. If you sexually abuse a child you will be expelled from Masonry. As for organizations that accuse us of such, let's look at how they handle sexual abuses committed by their clergy. The Catholic Church has a history of simple moving the offending priest from one parish to another and hopes that the whole thing will blow over. There are no consequences, it's my understanding the Catholic church has not even given so much as an apology to the victims or their families. Then we have the Southern Baptist convention, there we find a 200+ page investigation documenting rampant sexual abuses against children. Yeah that happened. These Evangelical, Southern Baptist and Catholic need to clean their own house before they speak on our sins.

The Bible says you shall know them by their fruits. Well if these institutions speaking ill on masonry aren't bearing good fruit, why should we assume their commentary on masonry is going to be any better?

Currently the Catholic Church is trying to undermine Freemasonry in the Philippines, because they apparently feel threatened by how well it is doing there while it's numbers are dwindling. They can't very well say that we are stealing members, whatever that means, when it is a masonic teaching that your God and Faith community comes first. We actually encourage you to put your church before the fraternity. We encourage you to be a strong adherent of your faith community. Most Masons who are Christian will tell you that masonry has brought them closer in their relationship to God. However many Church pastors continue to alienate their members for being members of the local Lodge, showing your true colors instead of being a house for the Lord.

We are seeing an increase in attacks upon the character and integrity of the institution of masonry because the churches are hurting. Their numbers are dwindling, hazard the members and most fraternities, and their attitude is most unfortunate because we should be working with each other to make our communities a better place.

The current generation has a strong distrust for organized religion and it's clear to see why. The ironic thing is they looked masonry and think it's a bunch of old white men who are part of the problem when we throughout the century to fought for religious freedom and against tyranny. Nonetheless here we are. We promote too much religious freedom to be acceptable by certain churches, and yet two unwilling to just jump on the bandwagon of current fads to be accepted by the current generation.

The whole reason the Catholic Church was against the lodge was because it was a place where Protestants and Catholics could mean going exchange ideas and this was a threat to the church who wanted it to be there way or the highway concerning religious doctrine. Even though we have taken the position that it is not Masonic etiquette to talk about politics or religion in the lodge, they were still worried about losing their flock and in particular of masonry's "enabling" the Protestant Reformation just because we were willing to have a discussion.

To this day, instead of admitting that they were involved in a unwarranted political transgression against us, they have doubled down and continue to utter falsehoods about what we teach.

I do not want it to be lost on you that there are brother Masons who identify as Catholic. I want you to think about that. The institution of Catholicism has not treated us well, and yet, we still accept their adherence into our fraternity with open arms. Truth of the matter is what we get tired of the antics of the Vatican, we don't care if you are Catholic, and being the brotherhood of Man under the fatherhood of God, we Believe that our rituals in our working tools, if properly applied, inculcate such virtue, that if a Catholic were to approach the altar of masonry under false pretenses, that they may yet see the light... And if it should be lost upon them and they trespass against us, the net is on their conscience and not ours and it will be their God they will have to answer to. That is a masonic way.

I would say to you, that the next time an institution goes to speak ill on masonry, investigate their own record. If it being individual, see who will vouch for their reputation.

Typically we are giving it in charge to turn the other cheek and and let fools be fools. The passage of time brings to spotlight of discretion upon the charlatan. Our ethic has long been to sit back and let the fools dig their own hole. Unfortunately however we have seen an escalation of violence against Freemasons. We are seeing increasing incidents of arson another form of vandalism; and a brother was even murdered as he was leaving his lodge after being installed as an officer.

No I do believe in letting fools show themselves to be fools, there comes a point where you just can't take it lying down, and I'm tired of the double standards.

God forbid you call out the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention or any such institution when they are in the wrong. You would think by people's reactions if that's in the front against God himself, even though they are taking his name in vain and generating distrust of his followers. All the while Masons our expressed on a canvas with gossip colored paint.

My grandpa is used to say, "make sure you know who you are mad at, and why". You've stated as much here that you were equivocating masonry with the powers that be, and that is the problem: we are made out to be the scapegoat so that those who are actually guilty can get away with what they do.

All he does is deny deny deny
I already told everyone
Well I guess I will post that ritual book in here including lucifer worshiping on the 33° th degree then,

Well to be fair it's easy to deny something when one hasn't given any evidence or sources to substantiate their claims. What I'm supposed to just take it as a face value truth because it came out of your mouth?

You go right ahead, because as an actual member of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Northern Masonic Jurisdiction, I know for a fact that one or two things are true here.

I. You are lying to me about your possession of said book.

Or.

II. You possess a clandestine book or a falsified document that is not legitimate, is I know again for a fact, that no official document or manuscript pertaining to the 33rd degree contains anything to do with Lucifer.

Let me explain to you the situation you put me in. Imagine you're on who wants to be a millionaire. Imagine you on the last question and about to win a million dollars and they ask you for your phone number is the final question. I'd rather let's say they ask you for your date of birth. That is the level of confidence I have here. Not only do I know what you say is not true but I know that it cannot be true. It is not a possibility. You might as well be asking me to fit 5 gallons of water in one gallon bucket.

There have been many attempts to try to undermine masonry, and it is still amazing that people will try to pair it to tactile hopes to do it when these things have been debunked time and again. There are better arguments to be made against Freemasonry.

I thought you were gnostic, shouldn’t you be a fan of Lucifer?

What does gnosticism have to do with Lucifer?

I'm searching my library
It was few years ago I accidentally opened that file

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Since he is mason
Maybe he could explain why these guys look like baphomet

You have.. seen bad for me right? Those Kerubim, and yes they are a style of depicting the Kerubim, look absolutely nothing like baphomet. I am assuming that you were referring to their lower halves. So I understand that they appear to look like goat's feet they are in fact the back has of a bull, you know like is in the sign of Taurus. As already, and correctly, stated in this thread, they are an amalgamation of the four holy beasts.

So I'm not sure what all you think there is to see here. I again have to question what your point is. You may be unaware that the four Gospels, and their authors are also correspondent to the four holy beasts. Such a Kerubim then be seen as the guardian angel of the Gospel.

You meant to answer that freemasonry is a degenerated form of hermeticism. A discount version perhaps.

-

From your view as Mason:

What is Initiation? How is it operated, bestowed upon or etc. What do freemasons think this means or encompasses?

No, no I said exactly what I meant to say and I would advise you not to try to put words in my mouth. Freemasonry is not a degenerate form of hermeticism nor a discount version thereof. Hermeticism is a fusion, primarily of cometic and Hellenic sources, mixed with other things that were moving through that part of the world. Alexandria was a philosophical Capital at the time we're in many wise men would travel to converse.

Where in Neoplatonism is of the Greaco-Roman tradition, Hermeticism Canon should be understood as the Graco-Egyptian syncretic tradition.

Much of the knowledge of antiquity was lost to Western civilization for hundreds of years. A significant portion of what survives today was preserved by Arabic speaking peoples. When these texts were translated and re-entered Western and Northern Europe, they were of the catalyst that sparked the Renaissance. The tail end of the Renaissance would lead to a momentary low, or rest, before the enlightenment exploded into existence.

When he studies of antiquity were reintroduced, so was her medicine which had its revival. Thought you have to understand that most of the common folk at the time could not read or write, and books were also very expensive. Therefore, people would use a set of images as prompts to convey concepts. These were not used unlike bullet points are used in PowerPoint presentations today. Just like vocabulary and vernacular of today, these pictures had slightly different meanings depending on which field or subject you were talking about. Need symbolic picture sets were incorporated into masonry, being used as prompts into illustrate our teachings. Likewise were they used in the hermetic revival as prompts and illustrations for hermetic teachings. They were also used in alchemy for the same purpose and this is why you see these symbols showing up everywhere and all of these very old institutions.

Freemasonry has nothing to say of the Divine Nous, or how the cosmology of the Corpus Hermeticism. That said her medicine and Freemasonry pair very well together. There is even a brother who goes by AlchemicMason on tick tock who is a Hermeticist, and give lives discussing the teachings and worldview of Hermeticism.

If anything Freemasonry is more closely related to Rosicrucianism, which does draw heavily on alchemy and can be argued, used hermeticism to correct some of the short sites in a more Gnostic approach. Yeah well Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism certainly influenced one another they are not equivalent terms.

As for initiation. To initiate means to start or begin, and an initiation is to be brought into some sort of mystery wherein we hope one is impressed by this mystery and thus gains some gnosis. No since refers to experiential knowledge. It is not merely conceptual and this is why we say you could read the written ritual and still not understand what it is in its essence because it's essence is to be experienced.

Initiation is not something that you can do to yourself because you can't give yourself something that you don't have. Your sphere of awareness needs to be expanded and that means there has to be some kind of catalyst outside your sense of waking self in order to do it.

And initiation will use the senses, or perhaps the lack thereof, to induce an altered way of experiencing and perceiving, to create a visceral experience whereby images and symbols and language maybe impressed upon an inculcated in the psyche, whereby in that fertile soil they will eventually sprout and lead to an altered way of experiencing life.

Imagine notices this way: you wake up and you're surroundings are dark, light bing dim; you see something somewhat distant from you in your field of vision and it appears to your census to be something that you sort of recognize and are convinced that it is that thing, however as your eyes focus you start to see what it really is. That moment where you start to see it in a new light is a moment of gnosis. Once your brain understands what you are looking at you can't go back to seeing it the way you did a moment ago. Oh you can get yourself to see how you thought it was the previous thing or identity but you can't go back to seeing it without understanding that it is not the thing you originally thought it was. You're awareness, consciousness if you will, has expanded. This is noses and this is what a mystery tradition does. This is what initiation is for.

Masonic initiation brings the world into optical focus with the light of God in the lens of reason. It didn't go Kate certain virtues and more lessons and one might ask why you need a ritual to know how to be moral. We do not in any way profess that you do. However it is one thing to understand a moral or virtue on paper, conceptually. It is another thing to be brought face to face with that virtue and to be tested by it, finding out what you are really made of in which parts of the human animal May inhibit you from that virtue. You come to know yourself and uncomfortable ways and enlightening ways. And you use your working tools to work on those character falls that you have found within yourself. You work on yourself as a stone so you can take your proper place in God's creation and you also work on yourself as the temple that you may be a proper housing for God's light. This is Freemasonry and this this is the initiation of the Spirit.

 

[Mars]

@TheHummingbirdWizard freemasonry comes or is related to rosicrucians you say. However Rosicrucians already devolved from hermeticism. It's not that what I say is an opinion.

Whereas Hermeticism withdrew underground in the wake of the false and foreign religion of Abraham spreading like the pest in europe, rosicrucians and later freemasons sought to adapt and to surrender to them, in order to still convey their "tradition". One has to wonder how much tradition there is still left after abandoning so much in favour of the jewish god. You became a gentile. Forever barred from learning true magic. And again, it's not me saying this or my "opinion".

Your idea of Initiation does line up with what is conveyed in Alchemy but it does deviate in many points and comes to weird conclusions. Just as René Guenon said.

Its not the middle ages anymore, we don't need to hide and use allegories anymore in fear of prosecution. But freemasons wont do that. They wont go back to tradition. Hence its a degeneration.

A god that has no name. Rather, their followers are not allowed so say his/ her/ its name. How pitiful of an existence. At least you have your fancy materialistic titles and degrees right?

 

[Xingtian]

@TheHummingbirdWizard freemasonry comes or is related to rosicrucians you say. However Rosicrucians already devolved from hermeticism. It's not that what I say is an opinion.

Whereas Hermeticism withdrew underground in the wake of the false and foreign religion of Abraham spreading like the pest in europe, rosicrucians and later freemasons sought to adapt and to surrender to them, in order to still convey their "tradition". One has to wonder how much tradition there is still left after abandoning so much in favour of the jewish god. You became a gentile. Forever barred from learning true magic. And again, it's not me saying this or my "opinion".

Well this is nonsense. There is no evidence of a unified hermeticist tradition, even at the beginning of the movement when the texts were being written by, in all likelihood, disenfranchised Egyptian priests. These texts already have a syncretic character, including Jewish elements. The idea of a secret underground lineage is as silly as the witch cult hypothesis that underpins Wicca. The Corpus Hermeticum as we have it is was compiled and preserved by Christian monks of the East Roman Empire. The texts were then translated into Latin by Marsilio Ficino- another Christian. The only reason you know about hermeticism is because Christians transmitted the texts.

 

[Mars]

Well this is nonsense. There is no evidence of a unified hermeticist tradition, even at the beginning of the movement when the texts were being written by, in all likelihood, disenfranchised Egyptian priests. These texts already have a syncretic character, including Jewish elements. The idea of a secret underground lineage is as silly as the witch cult hypothesis that underpins Wicca. The Corpus Hermeticum as we have it is was compiled and preserved by Christian monks of the East Roman Empire. The texts were then translated into Latin by Marsilio Ficino- another Christian. The only reason you know about hermeticism is because Christians transmitted the texts.

Well this is nonsense. And very revisionistic too. You might as well make a package together with our masonry "brother" here. Complementing each other in the strive for Zersetzung.

Also by reading certain vedic texts you can very easily draw a connection to Hermeticism. Both supporting each other.

And Vedic texts are the oldest known scriptures, unaltered, unedited. Because they are authoritive and factual. While the Corpus Hermeticum might be more recent, it's teachings and source go back way further and came down from Hyperborea, same as the vedas.

 

[Xingtian]

Yeah, I was there when the mighty-thewed Conan came down from grim Hyperborea, Atlantean sword in one hand, a stack of Vedas in the other… that was an age of high adventure

 

[Mars]

Yeah, I was there when the mighty-thewed Conan came down from grim Hyperborea, Atlantean sword in one hand, a stack of Vedas in the other… that was an age of high adventure

You aren't that much off from the truth, even when you try to make it ridiculous and sarcastic. Also why did this draw out your ego? Something to meditate on for you. Perhaps Conan again shows pity, steps down and illuminates you.

 

[Xingtian]

You aren't that much off from the truth, even when you try to make it ridiculous and sarcastic. Also why did this draw out your ego? Something to meditate on for you. Perhaps Conan again shows pity, steps down and illuminates you.

My god is stronger. He is the everlasting sky! Your god lives underneath him.

 

[Konsciencia]

Hummingbird, I gotta hand it to ya. You nailed this one. I greatly appreciate your information. I'm sorry for the Masons being the Scapegoat.

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

@TheHummingbirdWizard freemasonry comes or is related to rosicrucians you say. However Rosicrucians already devolved from hermeticism. It's not that what I say is an opinion.

Incorrect. First of all Rosicrucianism didn't devolve from anything. It arises out of the syncretism in Germany, of Christian Mysticism, certain Qabbalistic teachings, Alchemy, and the fusion of the magical and mystery traditions, with a splash of Gnostic conceptualization. Yes, alchemy is often called one of the three hermetic arts, however the most prominent alchemists that we know of actually spoke very little if anything on Hermeticism. So I understand how you came to your conclusion but it is incorrect.

It is also worth noting that you don't have to practice alchemy to be a Rosicrucian, it is considered a mean to an end.

I actually prefer Rosicrationism to hermeticism and in many ways find it Superior. While Hermeticism is an excellent philosophy, it doesn't outright provide a system of development or path working like you see in the forms of Masonic Rosicrucianism. See the problem with Hermeticism is that while it is excellent in the philosophical domain, it does very little to provide a working praxis and that doesn't cater well to having an actual living relationship to the monad, without some adjustment and work. The truth is, we can considered Hermeticism an incomplete system. If we were to compare it to Agrippa's work, it needs its own fourth book of practical application.

This is not the fault of Hermeticism however. I would be shocked to find out that a practical and pragmatic approach never existed. We can confidently say it was lost. When you figure the nature of intercultural exchange in and around Alexandria, it makes sense that what would survive would be the philosophical aspects of the work is that would be the majority portion of the corpus.

If I had not already been given a well-founded faith as pertains to my own cultural backgrounds, being Cherokee Nvwoti and Appalachian folk practices at large, I might very well be a Hermeticist. It is hard to say because my background gives me great appreciation for Hermeticism, and without it who knows if I would see the same value therein.

Rosicrucianism compliments nicely with both my Christian Appalachian heritage and the mysticism of my Native Appalachian heritage. It also fits very nicely with my being a Freemason. Now again I know brothers who are Hermeticist and that also pairs very nicely with Freemasonry. Those particular Brothers don't have much Christian influence in their life, which is probably why they aren't drawn so much to Rosicrucianism. Hermeticism talking about the Nous is good stuff, and I have Incorporated that into my teachings, however, I am better characterized as a Rosicrucian. Well I am solidly rooted in the traditions of my own heritage, I am also influenced by the works of Frater Archer, Paracelsus, the Arbatel, and John Dee.

See people get on these forms thinking they know everything and professor x is the most powerful form of magic or philosophical system that ever graced the planet. That is not how it works. Does the philosophical system accurately model the territory which you, are wanting to explore? Does the system engage your psyche and it's various phenomena as to bring you to a transcendent experience of the noumenia, if that is even what you are looking for ... This is the question.

My primary system and motor practice Nvwoti, animal I have found it to be the most potent regarding their results I have gotten, it would be utterly useless to you as a non-cherokee individual. You couldn't even practice it because it is culturally closed but even if you could you would not understand it, not having any grasp of the language, the actions they're in or the very syntax and grammar which shapes our thought processes. It would be like trying to put diesel in a Honda Civic.

So I do not understand your lot of bull attempt to try to make Hermeticism Superior to Rosicrucianism.

Whereas Hermeticism withdrew underground in the wake of the false and foreign religion of Abraham spreading like the pest in europe, rosicrucians and later freemasons sought to adapt and to surrender to them, in order to still convey their "tradition". One has to wonder how much tradition there is still left after abandoning so much in favour of the jewish god. You became a gentile. Forever barred from learning true magic. And again, it's not me saying this or my "opinion".

This is a false history, has already stated out in this thread. There is no evidence of a surviving hermetic tradition from antiquity. You might as well be citing the burning times and call yourself a neopagan practicing ancient witchcraft. By false religion of Abraham I'm supposing you mean Christianity, as a Jewish people usually don't get into other people's religious or philosophical business. This is incorrect however and I think you need to understand Christian history. Christians were persecuted by Roman officials and authorities of the state, and it is they who had to go underground. They were even fed to lions. Then there was also a syncretic period we're free Christian religious structures and beliefs were advanced into the emerging Christian religion. It wasn't until later that the church tried to purge itself of these earlier influences that they deemed pagan. In fact Christians were called pagan long before specifically non-Christian Rome was ever called pagan.

Khemetic culture most certainly influenced Hellenic culture, yet by the time Christianity came into power, Egypt had already been under Roman rule. So no it was not the Christians that were oppressing Khemetic peoples. That timeline just does not add up. If you're going to play the victim at least make it plausible.

Let's also not forget to consider the other sides grievances. Though Christians are not Jews, their savior was, and his people were reportedly mistreated by the Pharaoh. We read this in the book of Exodus. So why we don't have any evidence of Christians oppressing the Egyptians, which is not to say that we don't have evidence of them pressing most everybody else, we do have accounts of Egyptians being oppressive. Which I always thought was interesting because we also have it under good understanding that the only slaves the Egyptians had were prisoners of war or otherwise those who have committed crimes against the state. It makes you wonder what went down.

I will give you a beef though that the Egyptians had with the Christians. You see Exodus was translated into Greek and it did not paint the khemetic people in a favorable light. So what did they do? Well naturally they told their own version of this story which painted them as the victims. No I'm not here to say who started it and from my experience in life, as it generally goes, very rarely is one side completely innocent and the other an absolute evil- although outright genocide in atrocity does happen. I was not there so I cannot say. What I can say is how this played out.

Set, what's the khemetic God of foreigners and generally speaking not one of the most well-liked gods of the pantheon. He was associated with turmoil, Ill Fortune and for lack of a better description generally considered a bad omen. So what they did was they synchronized him with Jesus. Now set was sometimes represented with a donkey, as a donkey or with the head of a donkey (this tradition is obscure and doesn't otherwise survive much) and so you would see the pictures of Jesus on the cross with the head of a donkey. You really can't make shit stuff up.

That's not all they did however. Set said it was also associated with Apep/Apophis. I am not saying that they are the same entity, yet they were seen to be different expressions of some of the same mysteries. Well the Hellenic equivalent to a purpose was Typhon. When they equivocated Jesus with set, they also made sure to equivocate YHVH with Apophis and therefore Typhon. It's understandable to see why I mean if you read the descriptions of YHVH in the Old Testament they are very dragon-like.

Now this syncretic YHVH-Typhon evolved into a lion headed serpent called Yaldaboath. That's right, this was the beginning of Gnosticism. Now while seriously doubt the Kemetic people ever thought their counter story would evolve into a full-blown religious system, here we are. Does it could be said that kemetic propaganda, enabled and became an anti-christian movement- or rather an anti-YHVH movement as Gnostics did profess, generally, Christianity. There was so much emphasis on Jesus as the savior of humanity and of the world that he also became the savior of the demiurge thus despite him earlier being conflated with Set, the idea of the donkey headed Jesus died out while the notion of YHVH being a blind demiurge still had adherents. -and make no mistake, it was indeed propaganda because while telling your side of the story is one thing, misrepresenting another's God and dressing it in donkey, is a whole other thing.

No that is your opinion. It is your opinion that that history is correct even though it is not. It may not be an original opinion. You seem to be conveying that you read this somewhere where it was propounded to you as fact, even though it is a falsehood.

I'm not sure where your anti-christian and anti-semitic mentality is coming from but it has dragged you under the bus and is proceeding to dig the hole of your burial. Do you really wish to die upon this hill? -you could state that no wars have been fought in the name of Hermeticism yet I would point out let the movement never had such power and is today especially niche, and further, that your own radical adamancy is a seed of such religious warring.

Your idea of Initiation does line up with what is conveyed in Alchemy but it does deviate in many points and comes to weird conclusions. Just as René Guenon said.

You are coming across as quite ignorant. Alchemy, do it certainly has its Aura of mystery, did not come out of the mystery traditions nor is it a rite of passage. Alchemy does not have an initiation nor does it speak of initiation. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying you cannot have an initiatory experience beholding the spiritual essence of your chemical operations- but alchemy classically has nothing to say on initiation in and of itself.

What you have often failed to do and continue to fail to do, is provide your own definitions for your verbiage. If my definition of initiation is wrong and ludicrous, deviating from accepted points, then what definition of initiation do you give? Or are you merely trying to undermine my positions by making it appear as if I am ignorant to the nature of initiation? To that matter, as initiation is something to be experienced and not merely conceptualized, to what have you been initiated into?

You mentioned one, Rebe Guenon, then proceeded to fail to explain their relevance to this conversation, or what they said.

[/QUOTE]
Its not the middle ages anymore, we don't need to hide and use allegories anymore in fear of prosecution. But freemasons wont do that. They wont go back to tradition. Hence its a degeneration. [/QUOTE]

You seem to fail to grasp what constitutes a living tradition, and we will get back to that. Firstly, we need to understand here that Freemasonry is strongly rooted in Tradition. In fact things change very slowly within Freemasonry and this is often referred to as Masonic time. Secondly, you are sending mixed messages. You state that we are not in the medieval ages anymore and that should move forward but then say we should cling to tradition, which is it?

Thirdly, as Masons we actually do have to worry about persecution. There are still countries where Masons are persecuted or were masonry is even illegal. Even in the United States, and Europe, we have vigilantes thinking they are doing the world a favor, who set lodges on fire or otherwise vandalize them. Not that long ago we had a brother murdered in front of his lodge, in McAllen Texas.

So you are entirely misinformed. Just because you have not encountered persecution and your studies, does not mean that we Masons can claim the same.

You also need not go back to the Middle ages to make your example, World War II, which in the grand scheme of things was not that long ago, will suffice.

All that having been said our reason for secrecy is not primarily or even originally for our protection from persecution. It is because we are a mystery tradition.

You disparage my understanding of initiation and yet you are telling me that you do not understand the importance of keeping a mystery in a mystery tradition? Do you seriously not understand how to cultivate Revelation and gnosis and ceremonial ritual? Yet you are a Hermeticist after all, I should not have to explain to you what Gnosis is or how keeping things in confidence until the appointed time is a tool to secure the effectiveness of a ritual to convey gnosis. This is basic 101 stuff and so if you don't understand it, you probably shouldn't be talking about the history of various esoteric movements as if you were some kind of authority.

It also shouldn't be lost on the reader that we started as an operative trade guild and these were originally trade secrets. At the same time if I can't trust you to keep a handshake or an inside experience and confidence, I can't trust you as a man and you've completely missed the bonding aspects that these rituals have in their bringing one into brotherhood in The Craft.

A god that has no name. Rather, their followers are not allowed so say his/ her/ its name. How pitiful of an existence. At least you have your fancy materialistic titles and degrees right?

What are you talking about? There is no God of Freemasonry so there's no God there to have a name. Freemasonry, again, works with your pre-existing belief in a supreme Creator being. If you don't have a name by which to address your God that shortcoming is on you and not The Craft. I have a name for my God so I know you're not referring to me.

If you are trying to cite the common misconception that you can't say the name of Jesus in the lodge, you are mistaken. It is Masonic etiquette that we don't talk about religion or politics in the lodge. However this is etiquette, not something that will have you brought up on charges unless you were making it a problem. I have given the Sonic education where I had to explain the times in which the events occurred and that required talking about the political climate. That was appropriate because it was relevant and it was no way soliciting are promoting any particular political party or view. If you're talking with your brothers after a lodge meeting, and Jesus comes up... Nobody cares. You all think we make a big deal about it but we don't. If a brother ends a prayer before a formal meal and jesus's name.. nobody cares. Yes we have an ethic of making sure that all our members are equally represented and we don't want them to feel excluded whereas if that prayer either doesn't include them or includes them without their consent.. but I haven't been to a lodge where this has ever been a problem. You can say what you will about old white country boys but it has never been a problem and the more conservative country lodges that I go to. If it were to be a problem, it would likely be in an inner city Lodge where despite the surrounding demographics claiming to be inclusive, they go looking for things to take issue with.

The truth of the matter is, it is getting increasingly difficult to talk about the everyday goings on of the world without politics coming up because we live in a very politically divided time. Perhaps it is always been so but with current social media and news cast, the division is especially emphasized.

See what you don't understand is it no Lodge likes an issue becoming an issue that the Grand Lodge has to handle, and no secretary, Worshipful Master, DDGM or other Grand Line officer likes taking time out of their busy schedule to file paperwork because two brothers couldn't get along. They don't want to have to babysit you and if they have to babysit you you're in trouble just cuz you've annoyed them. To that point, unless you've done something exceptionally egregious, they aren't going to make it an issue until you make it an issue, meaning again that if we can behave and police our own conduct such that we don't have to be reprimanded.. nobody cares what we talk about.

When you see a preacher say that we're not allowed to say Jesus in a masonic lodge... Know that that's a pretty strong indication that they've never stepped foot in a masonic lodge. Jesus is a primary exemplar in both the York and Scottish rights and depending on how the ritual for the craft Lodge is done in your jurisdiction there are references to him if you take that experience in full form. I will give you this much, the apron is of the lamb. Who is the Lamb of God?

And that courtesy goes to other religions as well. I've had Brothers ask me about my face and what we call God in my culture and language. That's perfectly fine because they are being perfectly respectful.

We say we don't talk about religion and politics and lodge because it causes disharmony. The whole point is to avoid disharmony and division such that we would be unable to do the work of Masonry. See that's the context that gets left out- it is entirely dependent whether it is causing disharmony or not.

Now that having been said when we go into that large room and we open up Lodge, that is a solemn thing. We don't bring the worldly into that so we aren't talking about politics during our ritual or when we are conducting our business because we are there for wisdom that has stood the test of time, not the temporal worries of the day.. then we leave the lodge armed with that wisdom so that we can bring guidance to our lives in light of that wisdom. The only time we talk about mundane goings-on in our meetings is when we are paying the bills, planning an event, for discussing how we can help a destitute individual.

No I have already granted that we have very lofty titles that to outsiders seem very pretentious so I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish or prove by continuing to beat that dead horse. Keep in mind that when you go through a degree you are often learning about some historical figure putting yourself in their shoes. What say you have the title Prince of Jerusalem. Very lofty and yeah I suppose that could contribute to some ego.. but what does it mean to invoke the Prince of Jerusalem? Who was he? What trials and tribulations did he face? Which virtues did he possess and which virtues are you to emulate in learning from his example. Freemasonry put you in the footsteps of Great Men and though they may be long gone, it is also true that they walk with you as you continue on the tradition and invite them to walk with you in your own journey. I want to be very clear that there is no necromancy and Freemasonry. We aren't calling up the spirit of Solomon from his grave and asking him questions. What does it mean however, to keep Solomon close to your heart as you walk through life. What does it mean to remember his example when you are in a position of authority or in command? If my family is in crisis and I ask myself what my great grandfather would have done in order that I might find some guidance and I let him be there with me, for whatever part of him may live within me or choose to come visit me.... We talk a lot about working tools and Masonry but sometimes you also got to ask those who came before you to help you learn how to use them.

Well this is nonsense. And very revisionistic too. You might as well make a package together with our masonry "brother" here. Complementing each other in the strive for Zersetzung.

Yeah I don't know what Zersetzung is, or who has a package for who, but I might point out that you have yet to provide anything worthwhile to establish your claims.

Also by reading certain vedic texts you can very easily draw a connection to Hermeticism. Both supporting each other.

And Vedic texts are the oldest known scriptures, unaltered, unedited. Because they are authoritative and factual. While the Corpus Hermeticum might be more recent, it's teachings and source go back way further and came down from Hyperborea, same as the vedas.

See now I know you are entirely off your rocker because Vedic philosophy and religion has absolutely nothing to do with Hermeticism. Nada, zip, not a thing. You were talking about two completely different traditions from two different parts of the world that arose independently of one another. Now don't get me wrong, mini traveled from the near far East into Alexandria to talk about philosophy and it was from this environment that Hermeticism arose, and I suppose a traveler from India or even Tibet could have entered the near far East and from this that are ideas were conveyed by somebody else into Alexandria. They didn't even have to go there themselves. However there is no evidence to suggest that her medicine is significantly influenced from Vedic tradition. It's just not there.. which is honestly sad because when you look at the conversations both traditions were having about the nature of observation and existence... Somebody should have gotten them together.

You also seem to be stuck in this logical fallacy that just because something is older, that it is better or more factual. This is not inherently the case. If something is older and has a long standing history of bearing fruit than it is tried and true, standing the trials of time. When you have a few centuries let alone thousands of years to perfect a system, it tends to be on a whole other tear than something somebody's been working on for just a few years.

-and yes typically when looking at manuscripts if you find an older version of say the Lesser key of Solomon it is likely to be more authoritative and it's authenticity regarding the nature of the original article then a later manuscript of the Lesser key of Solomon, however this is not always the case. The earlier manuscript could be a clear deviation from even earlier manuscripts whereas the later manuscript maybe a closer match to those earlier manuscripts.

I would say you need to learn how forensic investigation of documents actually works. You seem to think the older something is the more factual it is.. and if an altered it may be more factual in the sense of what was originally written but that doesn't mean that what was originally written was even correct. Therefore you can't say Hermeticism is more corrective a philosophy than Rosicrucianism just because it's older. That would be a logical fallacy and again we're talking about two completely different philosophical movements, so so the argument isn't which instance of x is more true to the original x.

-in the antiquity of Hermeticism was never relevant to the conversation. Heck her medicine itself wasn't relevant to the conversation other than me addressing a common question, you derailed the threat into that tangent. Still, it matters not how old Hermeticism is. Hermes Trismegistus could have played strip poker with Little foot, Spike and Duckie and it would make no difference.

It would make no difference because the age of the philosophy was never in contention, the argument was whether or not Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry were devolved forms of Hermeticism. That is the only thing that matters here, and I have demonstrated that they are not.

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2024

Hummingbird, I gotta hand it to ya. You nailed this one. I greatly appreciate your information. I'm sorry for the Masons being the Scapegoat.

It's just another day at the office.

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2024

You aren't that much off from the truth, even when you try to make it ridiculous and sarcastic. Also why did this draw out your ego? Something to meditate on for you. Perhaps Conan again shows pity, steps down and illuminates you.

Really? You devolved into accusing people of having an ego instead of making an argument... To think you have the audacity to say that Freemasonry is a devolved form of anything given your behavior.

I mean think about that. When you attack somebody instead of their argument, all you're doing is showing those with a critical eye to see, that you are without fruit, and in this case, being a hypocrite.

 

[Mars]

Perhaps you see it in your next life

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2024

Also: I would like to give you the courtesy and respect of replying likewise detailed and more elaborate but I already said anything I wanted to say. I'm not someone that argues. And just reiterating what I posted takes away the value of it.

We both aren't too dissimilar, we just differ in degree. Literally and figuratively.

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

Cop Out
phrasal verb with cop verb
US /kɑːp/ UK /kɒp/ informal
to avoid doing something that you should do or that you have promised to do because you are frightened, shy, or you think it is too difficult.

• She copped out of the parachute jump at the last minute with some feeble excuse.

• Perhaps you see it in your next life

 

[Mars]

Cop Out
phrasal verb with cop verb
US /kɑːp/ UK /kɒp/ informal
to avoid doing something that you should do or that you have promised to do because you are frightened, shy, or you think it is too difficult.

• She copped out of the parachute jump at the last minute with some feeble excuse.

• Perhaps you see it in your next life

Whatever you are more comfortable with.

 

[Xenophon]

Cop Out
phrasal verb with cop verb
US /kɑːp/ UK /kɒp/ informal
to avoid doing something that you should do or that you have promised to do because you are frightened, shy, or you think it is too difficult.

• She copped out of the parachute jump at the last minute with some feeble excuse.

• Perhaps you see it in your next life

After I read Mars' post, I got me a tetanus shot in case there mighta been a rust spot on his irony. His refusal to continue an unproductive exchange is hardly a cop out. Life is rather too short to waste on eristic exercises.

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

After I read Mars' post, I got me a tetanus shot in case there mighta been a rust spot on his irony. His refusal to continue an unproductive exchange is hardly a cop out. Life is rather too short to waste on eristic exercises.

He made claims and when they were refuted he totally copped out. He is no different then the people who aggressively say "We will just have to agree to disagree" when they are caught in their falsehoods with nothing to stand on.

Post automatically merged: Feb 18, 2024

Perhaps you see it in your next life

Post automatically merged: Feb 17, 2024

Also: I would like to give you the courtesy and respect of replying likewise detailed and more elaborate but I already said anything I wanted to say. I'm not someone that argues. And just reiterating what I posted takes away the value of it.

We both aren't too dissimilar, we just differ in degree. Literally and figuratively.

No, we are extremely dissimilar.
For one thing, arguing doesn't bother me and it sharpens. I thrive in it. I also don't wus out after talking smack.

 

[Xenophon]

He made claims and when they were refuted he totally copped out. He is no different then the people who aggressively say "We will just have to agree to disagree" when they are caught in their falsehoods with nothing to stand on.

Post automatically merged: Feb 18, 2024

No, we are extremely dissimilar.
For one thing, arguing doesn't bother me and it sharpens. I thrive in it. I also don't wus out after talking smack.

I don't see his claims were refuted. Disagreed with, yes. But your own wordiness comes off as supreme lack of focus and want of genuine confidence. Verbal overkill.

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

I don't see his claims were refuted. Disagreed with, yes. But your own wordiness comes off as supreme lack of focus and want of genuine confidence. Verbal overkill.

He made claims and I explained how sone couldn't be true, and countered others to which he failed to respond to my points. That is on him.

If he wishes to counter, he can, yet as it stands he threw in the towel I stead of addressing my points.

You mistake hyperfocus for lack of focus, and an atypical neurology for lack of confidence.

You also mistake addressing each detail of his postings as overkill.

 

[Xingtian]

Unfalsifiable assertions (such as the laughable Hyperborean vedas claim or that elusive Satanic 33 degree rite) are by their nature unworthy of a detailed rebuttal. Hummingbird Wizard has shown generosity and patience.

 

[Xenophon]

He made claims and I explained how sone couldn't be true, and countered others to which he failed to respond to my points. That is on him.

If he wishes to counter, he can, yet as it stands he threw in the towel I stead of addressing my points.

You mistake hyperfocus for lack of focus, and an atypical neurology for lack of confidence.

You also mistake addressing each detail of his postings as overkill.

As usual, you are, of course impeccably correct.

Post automatically merged: Feb 18, 2024

Unfalsifiable assertions (such as the laughable Hyperborean vedas claim or that elusive Satanic 33 degree rite) are by their nature unworthy of a detailed rebuttal. Hummingbird Wizard has shown generosity and patience.

A prince among men, he.