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I haven't read the thread, so, maybe this was aleady addressed? Lacking linear time, all choices and all outcomes are predetermined. If there is balance to the karmic debt or credit, the events which are balancing are always and forever fixed.
This naturally leads to questioning freewill. If there is no freewill, then, this also discourages any "attempting" to do anything.
I resolve this with the many-worlds-interpretation:
There are nearly infinite versions of me on nearly infinite time-lines. Each and and every possible combination of choices and resultant outcomes exist as one of these time-lines. When I make a choice, I am choosing which of those nearly infinite time-lines is "mine". The choices and outcomes are predetermined within each time-line. But the assumption that there is only one time-line is discarded.
If there is a karmic balance as a universal law applied to each and every time-line, then, my choices determine how that balance is actualized in my life. Is the path pain or is the path pleasure, is the path smooth or is the path rocky? That is partially my choice. But the balance is always happening. Nothing changes that.
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FYI: There are a lot of misconceptions about what's perscribed for "sin" in the abrahamic religions, but you are 100% correct. Atonement is not absolution. There is a path for absolution, it's virtually impossible, but I've met 1 person whom I think has acheived it. They literally became a different person.
This is important because, everyone makes mistakes. In the abrahamic model, none are perfect ( with only one exception ). If there are no ways to balance the scales, so to speak, then once a person makes any mistake, they might decide to just give-up on trying to do good. They're already sullied, so, what's the point? If they cannot answer this question, then, they resolve to take the least effort approach to everything. If it causes harm, so what? They're already going to hell.
The reason to attempt to balance the scales while in the material realm is, the "balancing" that happens in the here-and-now are finite. If I do the crime, I absolutely want to "pay the fine" or "due the time" here on earth. If it's beyond? Those events are ongoing. These issues of crime and punishment are complicated. Very complicated. That's why a justice system is needed. Individuals need to work as a team to establish earthly justice. From the abrahamic perspective, since none are perfect, the divine intention is improvement. ( Genesis 4:7 ).
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They don't. Each event is like a card in a deck. The card has attributes assigned to it. Among those attributes are a "web-of-causation" a "web-of-consequences", a significant event prior, and a significant event following it. All of the events in a specific time-line can be layed out sequentially determined by the attributes assiged to the event. That's linear.
Take 52 cards, splay them out in order. Expand the the number to 100, 1000, 10000000, 1000000000000.... as the linear sequence approaches infinity, the significance of the divisions between each event is decreasing. Once infinity is acheived, there is zero significance of the divisions between the events, but, that does not change the attributes on the card. So, from an infinite perspective all the cards are more-or-less gathered up together in a deck. They're all "concurrent" and "omnipresent". The attributes are still assigned to them. The deck can be shuffled. It doesn't change the cards. The event defining it which was prior, is still assigned as prior. The event defining it which is following, is still assigned as following. The web-of-causation hasn't changed. The web-of-consequences hasn't changed. The signifiicance of the divisions is "null" if the number of cards in the deck is limitless.
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... it influences the choices.
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I have never seen this "law of balance" in the Zohar...
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"Harm none" can lead to negligence and complicity both of which cause harm.
When witnessing a crime, any proper intervention causes harm to the perpetrator in the short-term.
Great thoughts going on here in this thread for sure. Even if there was no free will, the worst thing would be for it to be accepted. Think about that one. I know it has been touched on here philosophically how our knowledge and belief effects choices. Maybe that was what the apple was about in the Garden. If we become aware of too much of the truth it can effect negatively the choices many make because of the fear perspective... The knowledge of the highest levels is in the hands of psychopaths which is not good. They have access to texts people will never see and what they experience in the occult is most likely quite out of this world. I think we could handle full disclosure of the truth with a low fear level populous only...
This has been an interesting thought experiment. I appreciate all the comments made so far. I'm tending to agree that the whole 'non linear time' aspect of causation has no bearing on Karma (proper) that we know of. Personally, I am going to reject the broad New Age definition of Karma at this point because it describes 'everything' and thus means nothing at all. Instead, I will emphasize the definition of Karma in Hinduism as explained by Mahatma Gandhi:
“To one like myself, who believes in the four Varnas, human life, during this present birth on the planet, is only one of a series. … Our present existence is a discipline which has to be lived within certain rules suited to this special stage. We cannot choose at this stage, for instance, our own parents, or our own birthplace, or our own ancestry. Why then, should we claim as individuals the right during this present brief life-period to break through all the conventions wherein we were placed at birth by God Himself. … [O]ne's own religious duty … connotes our seeking to live in harmony with those birth conditions and not rebelling against them, or seeking to overpass their limitations, either for individualistic or selfish reasons.”
The entitlement of the Western New Age movement leads me to suspect that they would outright reject the restrictive nature of actual Karma as it was used by Hindus to structure society. I have some as yet ill defined thoughts regarding social structure and Rene Girard's Mimetic Theory that would help explain how Hindu society has lasted for thousands of years while other ancient cultures were relatively short lived and over run. If your thoughts immediately go to comparing your own culture to that of India or China (another culture that has lasted for thousands of years), then you do need to read about Rene Girard's Mimetic Theory, because it is related to the concept of Covetousness. ("My culture is better because..." could be called an expression of mimetic desire. The subject is you. The object is a feeling of superiority. The mediator in this instance is the culture being compared as a model to imitate or surpass, because reasons.) For Hindus born into a particular caste, explained by Karma, coveting the rights, responsibilities, and privileges of a higher caste would be out of the question. When everyone thinks they can be King, then social order collapses. Apply that statement to the caste system, and perhaps you'll have a glimpse of what Girard and others have taken books to explain. Thou shalt not covet.
As for reincarnation, I'm currently inclined to believe in it because of the writings of the Spiritist movement. Spiritists have some beliefs that resemble Hindu Karma, but I am not about to appropriate a word which has a culturally defined meaning. I do not believe in Karma because I am not a Hindu and take no part in its caste system. The Spiritist movement explains Divine Justice quite well without borrowing the word 'karma'. Again, I have some as yet ill defined thoughts as to how I might integrate Girard's theories and the concepts of the Spiritists. One comes into uncharted territory when internet searches reveal that no one has yet attempted reconciliation of certain philosophies. Do we always need to walk the well worn path? Those who question the certainty of their beloved beliefs are welcomed as fellow searchers. May they be blessed!
Interesting thread.
Another good way of questioning Karma is: if we contract Karma, so to speak, when clinging to aspects of reality and, roughly speaking, wreaking havoc therefore getting tangled with others' suffering, what sort of Karma would be applied to the ones (or the One) responsible for the fabric of reality? Isn't suffering a hard coded feature of existence, and in a way, a form of using torture as a way to pressure beings into evolution, even if in a level they agreed with it (but can't remember)? I can't even imagine what kind of shit they'd have to endure if Karma is an actual thing. If it isn't just another phony "feature" in this cosmic game, of course. I don't know, Imagine some smart guy trying to lure you into a game, where you are aware you are going to suffer and sign a contract, but you actually can't even imagine how badly you're going to suffer and for how long, or even how much significant the game is. I can imagine Karma being applied REAL bad to a person like this. So what would happen to our faithful keepers?
This is one thought provoking thread for sure, lots of good input all up!
Here's something that always has caused me to question life as we know it: Look around at the condition of some animals.
Those "supposedly lower" than human on the evolutionary scale. What could any animal possibly have done to incur the unbelievable circumstances that they endure? Beasts of Burden, et al. They commit no "conscious" acts that could incur "karma" yet many of their lives sure do approach "living hell". The Eastern concept of karma wasn't on our minds here in the West prior to the Theosophical Society's insistence that we Believe? There has been lots of input all through this thread that I have really appreciated. My thought is that if you give belief to the concept of karma, then it will gladly comply in being real for You. At least for a while. Cause and Effect says: Act A incurs Effect B. There is no Judgement.
In the final analysis someone realized a concept such as karma would be ideal as a control system, Organized Religion?
Well, I gotta be 100% with you on this one. Why??? Very simple really... to believe in such thing as KARMA as exposed by regular media is to ignore the reality WE ALL live and SEE ona daily basis. The rich and greedy get richer and greedier by milking the poor and ignorant. The good ones, have endless misery their whole lives and die sick or killed for no good reason. Who sees this so called "balance"???? The first point? Religion is a human construct to conceive of some type of reward and divinity that "cares" about our human suffering. It was created by humans, for humans... to keep them under control. Humans, specially back in the times where religion was created, were quite SAVAGE in their actions and deeds. So the "poweres that be" (King Constantine one of them) HAD TO come up with something to have people self-police their actions by inflicting the fear of a punishing God in their hearts. There was no cameras back then, no precints, police cars.... the armies were to an extent, the only force in place to keep people under control. Kings always had one ultimate goal: enrich themselves and his, by the efforts of the people paying taxes, slaving away....total misery for the rest of humanity. I wonder if Christianity with all the harm they caused by persecuting anybody whose beliefs were contrary, any person accused of being a witch, etc... has their "God" ever punished them??? Cause after aeons of abuse, murder, senseless prosecutions (Inquisition) they should have VANISHED a long time ago cause "Karma" would have set the balance right???? But what do we see TODAY??? They are still going STRONG!!! The richest of religions in the whole wide world. So i guess so much for Karma theory, right????
Well, I gotta be 100% with you on this one. Why??? Very simple really... to believe in such thing as KARMA as exposed by regular media is to ignore the reality WE ALL live and SEE ona daily basis. The rich and greedy get richer and greedier by milking the poor and ignorant. The good ones, have endless misery their whole lives and die sick or killed for no good reason. Who sees this so called "balance"???? The first point? Religion is a human construct to conceive of some type of reward and divinity that "cares" about our human suffering. It was created by humans, for humans... to keep them under control. Humans, specially back in the times where religion was created, were quite SAVAGE in their actions and deeds. So the "poweres that be" (King Constantine one of them) HAD TO come up with something to have people self-police their actions by inflicting the fear of a punishing God in their hearts. There was no cameras back then, no precints, police cars.... the armies were to an extent, the only force in place to keep people under control. Kings always had one ultimate goal: enrich themselves and his, by the efforts of the people paying taxes, slaving away....total misery for the rest of humanity. I wonder if Christianity with all the harm they caused by persecuting anybody whose beliefs were contrary, any person accused of being a witch, etc... has their "God" ever punished them??? Cause after aeons of abuse, murder, senseless prosecutions (Inquisition) they should have VANISHED a long time ago cause "Karma" would have set the balance right???? But what do we see TODAY??? They are still going STRONG!!! The richest of religions in the whole wide world. So i guess so much for Karma theory, right???? Karma according to the hermetics kyballion is a SELF INFLICTING PUNISHMENT. That is the nature of this reality. What you believe in your heart, and feel, that's what you'll get. You are your own self punishing God.
Interesting thread.
Another good way of questioning Karma is: if we contract Karma, so to speak, when clinging to aspects of reality and, roughly speaking, wreaking havoc therefore getting tangled with others' suffering, what sort of Karma would be applied to the ones (or the One) responsible for the fabric of reality? Isn't suffering a hard coded feature of existence, and in a way, a form of using torture as a way to pressure beings into evolution, even if in a level they agreed with it (but can't remember)? I can't even imagine what kind of shit they'd have to endure if Karma is an actual thing. If it isn't just another phony "feature" in this cosmic game, of course. I don't know, Imagine some smart guy trying to lure you into a game, where you are aware you are going to suffer and sign a contract, but you actually can't even imagine how badly you're going to suffer and for how long, or even how much significant the game is. I can imagine Karma being applied REAL bad to a person like this. So what would happen to our faithful keepers?
Well, It's in venues like this that those of us who "question" the incredible B$$$ that would be foisted upon us can sometimes have a chuckle about the time/s that we too believed all that tripe? But, when I look around, and see some of my brothers and sisters engulfed in the Crap, and willing to defend it, my first thought is Wow! I will say exchanges here at WF have taught me a lot about myself, my "real" beliefs, about others and theirs as well. I'm even able to laugh at myself, and how incredibly dense I've been in the past, and every once in a while can still be,
that wasn't always the case. This post is now into four pages of thought provoking exchanges! You can't help but find Something here that may provide an "Ah, Hah" or two? It seems to me at times as in this discussion, that there's Hope that more people are seeing through the B$$$ all the time, even if it appears to be a slow process, everyone when they're ready, karma is one of those indoctrination's, this forum helps!
I once stated in another post that this is a Great Forum. I've learned a Lot here, I maintain that position!
Unfortunately karmic issues propagate across multiple incarnations - with the primary actors being drawn back into close association, often in the same family
Is George Orwell correct that "ignorance is strength"? Perhaps not.
Unfortunately karmic issues propagate across multiple incarnations - with the primary actors being drawn back into close association, often in the same family
If so... What re-incarnates? The "persona?", the core "individuality?", something "else?" The "persona" is mortal, the Individuality is "immortal"?
What constitutes the "being" in question here? Is the core "individuality" the "Soul?" Is what we "think" of as our "ego / persona" perennial?
Wouldn't the concept of having to create a new "persona" or "mask" with each birth seem like "doing things the Hard Way?". Is common sense
seemingly or ultimately irrelevant? These are some of the questions I'd like to see convincingly resolved.
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I've mostly answered the questions that I raised here for myself, if reason can be trusted to wrestle with ontological concepts like this, it would be interesting to see other views though!
If so... What re-incarnates? The "persona?", the core "individuality?", something "else?" The "persona" is mortal, the Individuality is "immortal"?
What constitutes the "being" in question here? Is the core "individuality" the "Soul?" Is what we "think" of as our "ego / persona" perennial?
Wouldn't the concept of having to create a new "persona" or "mask" with each birth seem like "doing things the Hard Way?". Is common sense
seemingly or ultimately irrelevant? These are some of the questions I'd like to see convincingly resolved.
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I've mostly answered the questions that I raised here for myself, if reason can be trusted to wrestle with ontological concepts like this, it would be interesting to see other views though!
And, being comprised of (in theory triple) aspects for simplicity's sake: Low, Middle, High selves, which aspect of being is it that "incurs" karma
that must "propagate across multiple incarnations - with the primary actors being drawn back into close association, often in the same family"?
It seems that humans are not the only intelligent species/structure within Existence. Do all intelligent beings participate in the cause and effect process?
On every plane of Existence there is substance/energy and intelligence. Just as a human breathes out carbon dioxide that then feeds plants, it may be that all energy is re-used countless times.
If so, a later user necessarily benefits/suffers from the effects left by the previous users.
Is there any entity within Existence that has only pure new energy substance in its bodies?
If not, then all intelligences within Existence participate in the cause and effect processes we call karma - including the various selves of the human structure
After copious discursive meditation sessions on similar concepts to those in this thread, I came up with the (stenographic in it's brevity) monologue that constituted my "introduction" to this forum. That wasn't rehearsed, it just kind of wanted to speak for itself, for lack of another way to say it. So... that's a great deal of what has formulated / crystalized from all those sessions. Anyone who cares to can read that, (and I'd be surprised if anyone would want to). There are vague allusions to karma there, though it mostly concerns my grasp of "being/ness". I thought it came out fairly clearly when the dust settled. In the final analysis everyone must arrive at the answer under their own steam, there is No Other Way!
However many newly minted "personas" it requires before "persona" and "individuality" become one is variable. ( Individuality retains them All! )
Sorry for all the UPG, but that's what they call it when it finds someone who will listen. I've said all that I feel I can contribute constructively to this one! Rock On!
I believe karma exists but it’s not as easy as doing something good vs doing something bad, for reference you can think of “enablers”. but our own good deeds could be enabling the destruction of others. This can be found in many facets of life, it could be some small good deed that leads to devastation, like the butterfly effect, (actually the movie is a good reference to this) you contributing one thing seemingly positive can spiral into doing harm.
Also the reason behind the kind acts could contribute to the karma.
when I speak of karma I Don’t mean for our next life via reincarnation but rather gnosis received, protection granted or how things fall into place for some people.
All that being said “good” and “evil” are subjective so who’s to know how karma factors in, it could be way more convoluted than how it’s normally represented.
Nah, I said in that Last post: "I've said all that I feel I can contribute constructively to this one! Rock On! "
I described my view in my Introduction to this forum, said that too above.
Since those introductions are Dated, it would take a bit of doing to find it though. So... to assist anyone
who may be interested all over again... It might be Boring!
There is a proposition that one of the qualifications for higher spiritual progress is the resolution of all personal karma. This includes good karma. Perhaps we have to wait while those we have helped work out their obligations to us
There is a proposition that one of the qualifications for higher spiritual progress is the resolution of all personal karma. This includes good karma. Perhaps we have to wait while those we have helped work out their obligations to us
If it is true that karma has to be dealt with, there will be both difficult and pleasant events that approach the human to allow the karma to be worked through quickly.
In my observation, mild personal karma is held in a grey arc outwards from the left shoulder and touching the left hip. It is not too hard to visualize.
If the personal karma is substantial, it looks like a dark sphere covering the human.
Group karma usually looks like a sphere - light grey to very black. These days I step back from relating too closely. I have had a couple of unpleasant/expensive experiences with group karma.
I will say exchanges here at WF have taught me a lot about myself, my "real" beliefs, about others and theirs as well. I'm even able to laugh at myself, and how incredibly dense I've been in the past, and every once in a while can still be,
